Palate Evolution, How your taste in Cigars changes all the time. Drew Estate M81 107

Swell AI Transcript: Pallet Evolition Final.mp3

00:00 Gary What's better than smoking a cigar with Bob Lazar while looking over a newly found flying saucer in Area 51? Smoking Underground. Episode… Palatevolution. We've got a light! Hello and welcome everyone back to another episode of Smoking Underground. Today we are talking about Palatevolution and we are smoking the Drew Estates Blackened M81 Maduro to the core. This sucker is dark, deep and I gotta say it looks like it's got a skin on it like the tobacco wrap on it is rather nice. I'm joined today by Gary and John. What's up fellas? Hola Señor. What's up? We are going to have a good discussion here about how your palate kind of changes, how it shifts from smoking cigars and what you do to the point where you may find yourself on one spectrum then back to another then back to another and a little bit of pairing I would say, not too much pairing with it but how different pairings can actually change what you're interested in at the time and we'll get into more discussion with that in just a bit.

01:35 Devin How have you been Gary? Been lovely, outstanding, beautiful as usual, taking a break from my hand modeling, you know other than that I'm fine. I can tell that's the only kind of modeling you can do. Yeah, you know I've got a great face for radio so that helps.

01:53 Gary Well I wanted to share with you today as part of that one stop to the pairing what I am pairing with this blackened M81. Oh please! Yes.

02:06 Devin Yeah, I'm drinking the Redwood Empire Lost Monarch blend of Scotch Whisky. Good looking bottle too in case you can't see it but yeah it's a good looking bottle though. Yeah, it's kind of a matte color and all that kind of jazz. It's got an old man with trees on the top of his head. I'd look it up. I think you might like it. A buddy of mine got it for me. It's got a nice, slight sharp but not too sharp on it. Is it talking about sharp? Does it taste more like a rye if you will?

02:40 Gary No, no it's actually, it tastes like a smooth Scotch but not too smooth and then on the sides of your tongue it does like a little hook and then releases. But it's still got kind of a caramel-y flavor to it which is weird. So it's a subtle hint to it. And I think the reason I chose that for the blackened M81 is simply because I wanted something kind of semi-sweet or the hints of sweet with something so dark. Tell us a little bit about this M81 here Gary.

03:14 Devin Well, M81 is, you know I'm not necessarily a Metallica fan. I'm just not. But I respect the group because I'm a rock and roller. I love rock and roll. I just do. Grew up with it. I grew up with it. You know, sang some of it and all that kind of crap. I've gone mellow since my older age now. But this particular cigar made by Drew Estate and in sort of a collaboration between Jonathan Drew and Rob Dietrich, and Rob Dietrich was a master distiller. So you're looking at a nice little blend right there of everybody coming together including the head honcho himself, James Hetfield of Metallica, which put this thing in motion here. It was, that's his particular cigar. He enjoys smoking cigar. He enjoys getting all of his buddies together and actually doing a nice smoke.

04:24 Gary And yeah, and he came up with the M81 and the M81 is basically the Metallica starting date of Metallica and the M being, you know, that's sort of a, if you will, just sort of the first letter of Metallica starting its venture. So, and he wanted to dedicate that. So, and he did. So he got Jonathan Drew and the rest of the bunch together and made this thing right here. It comes in four different sizes. And we're looking at good looking, good looking stick, dark man. It's got a nice Maduro on it. It's got one of my favorite rappers on this. It's got a San Andreas rapper on it. It's got a, it's got a Connecticut binder, a Nicaragua, Pennsylvania filler on it. And it's, it's pretty freaking pretty freaking cool looking. Hey, what do you think of the band, Def? The band is, it's just, playing's not the right word. It's simplistic. And I mean that in a good way, not in a bad way. Because you know me, I typically like elaborate bands or intricate bands. But for this one, I would say they did it right because they've got a band not only around, you know, the mouthpiece, but also near the tip of it as well. And it's just, it's an embossed with a little bit of a logo on it. And then it just has a square that says M81 Maduro to the core. And I gotta say, using that kind of like copper look for their text on that part. It's cool, isn't it? It is. It's subtle. It's nice. It's not over the top. And then it's got the typical Drew Estate, you know, bridge symbol and all that on it. And then at the top, the smaller one that actually says the blackened on it. It's got a whole line all the way across the word blackened. And the text is in white. And it's very subtle. And now when you just look at the cigar, which I know you guys can't see it right now, but you just look at the cigar with just the singular thin, you know, it's probably, what would you say that's like three quarters of an inch? Yeah, something like that. I would say. Yeah. Yeah, thick and just the word on it. It's nice. And I'd have to say, I've got two critiques of it from pre and post. Okay. Right. So when I first smoked this thing, it first came out, pulled it out of the humidor, lit the thing up, started smoking it. I didn't enjoy it. And I was like, why do I not enjoy this? Because I've seen all the marketing for it. They went through it. I've watched reviews of it, all this kind of stuff. And this kind of goes along the same path. I'm talking about pairing because I think I was drinking something really harsh at the time, like a really harsh, like rye, which I'm not a big fan of rye whiskey. And I was drinking something that bit the tongue a little harder than normal. But I got to tell you, we got these cigars, John gave them out to us, and I've had it sitting in a bag with a Boveda pack. And I feel like it's mellowed out a bit to the point where when I first lit this up, I absolutely enjoyed the smell of it. You couldn't see me, but my eyes lit up when I lit this thing because it's got such a nice, bold's not the right word because it's not bold. It's duro. It's like classic Maduro to it. And even if you just dry smell it, you know, you shove it in your nose and you smell it. It has bits and hints of sweet that kind of pull through it.

08:16 John I'm going to be right there with you, Devin. When I first saw it was like two days after it arrived in the store. I knew none of the background on it or anything, but I'm blackened. And I was going, oh, maybe I wanted something like a Camacho Triple Maduro. Come on. Right. And I smoked it and I despised it. It was horrible. And the ones that we selected, like you said, they've been in the shop now for a month or two. They've been in the humidor. They haven't been outside on the counter on display. They have are not just off the UPS truck. They've been in with a Bavita pack because, you know, I give you guys your cigars with the Bavita pack and the little cigars and more. If I told a Ziploc bag and that's I keep mine separate that way so I know what we're smoking. And I smoked this, the M 81 here, M 81. And it was a fabulous cigar. It goes back and we're going to have an episode in a couple of weeks where we're going to discuss humidity and not how to set up your humidifier, not any of that. But on every cigar has a humidity that is where it needs to be. Every cigar at 70 degrees, 70 percent humidity. No, some cigars need to be a little bit drier. Some need to be a little bit wetter. And this is one that really emphasized that to me.

09:43 Gary It also emphasized buy it when it first gets into the shop, but maybe put it in your humidor and let it sit a week or two and acclimate to the climate and get it, you know, the UPS truck is not a good humidor. No, it's not. And I would say, you know, it's interesting is I'm looking at the actual wrap on the outside and it's it's to use the lack of a better word, it's bumpy. Like it's it's textured a bit, which I wasn't expecting. And I think I see a little bit of plume on some sections. I wouldn't say it's a it's in plume and it's, you know, gotten to that point. But I would say to reiterate John's, it's matured since the time it came out to the point of now to where this is better. And to go with the pairing with it, I would say you need something smooth. Now, I typically like smooth libations, but something smooth with a hint of flavor goes way better than this than something that might bite you, even though if you like bite in your libation. I think a bite distracts. Hypothetically, Gary likes to drink, you know, frappuccinos or mocha coffee, so to speak. That might be just fine with something like this because this isn't flavor. The blackened isn't a flavored cigar. But if you pair it with something with a little bit of flavor, you're going to notice the distinct difference, the yin and the yang, the complexity on top of each other. And Gary, you need to light yours up and stop sniffing it. That's what I'm saying.

11:16 Devin Oh, that's right. I am more than I. Well, I, I, I stay. He's just indulging it. I'm actually on the other side of the corner. I've never had it before.

11:25 John And I was, you're talking about the rapper there, Devin. My education always expanding. I'm always learning. And I can't remember. And Gary might know the answer. I could Google it here real quick. The guys from Roma Craft were on a podcast this weekend and they were talking about a thicker wrapper in deeper veins and how you got it. You have to have that to add some flavors and add some complexity to the smoke, I guess. Roger that. It's just this, this, this cigar does harken back to it. It's a thicker leaf. And that's something that the guys from Roma Craft were talking about that they use a thicker leaf for some, especially there. We smoked to the Neanderthals. That's probably what this cigar reminds me most of is a Neanderthal.

12:19 Gary It has that sweetness. It has that flavor. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. And did you mention when you were talking about the cigar and Metallica and that that Black and was actually a song on and justice for all. I forgot to, I forgot to add that. I think I was, but I think we got sidetracked a little bit there. Yeah. Yeah, I really would love to play it. Oh, freaking. We know the rules. I could sing it for you. Go with it, baby. Go with it. I mean, hypothetically, you can put in a, you know, maybe a two second clip just to tease people. I don't know.

12:51 John We probably, we probably can get away with it right now, but once we regain all of our popularity and listeners, it might censor the episode.

13:00 Gary Yeah, that's true. Once we get up above six listeners, it's off. You know, after that, the main, the topic for the day is a pallet evolution. The reason we wanted to pair the M 81 with this topic is simply because it's a trend that I've noticed having introduced a lot of people to cigars lately. I'm telling you, in the past, like two years, I have brought, I did a count and I've got to do like five or 10 people into smoking cigars or coming back to smoking cigars. To me, kind of a revolutionary number because I don't think most people do that. But you get into the concept of it. And I know for me and for some of these people I've talked to, when they start out, I typically get them something in the sun grown, mild range. My go to is the Hemingway because it's the classic smoke. It's the classic smell to the smoke. The classic look, everything about it. I've got a couple of reeks of I smoke cigars. Then everybody starts to branch out on their own and they just are looking for flavor. They're sticking their nose in cigars and they're like, you know what? These maduros sound good. They smell good. Let's try this. And they latch onto it almost immediately. Almost every single one of them. Yeah, I'm a dark cigar smoker right now. And I was the same way. I probably hit dark cigars for God for a while. I was like, no, I don't want that. I couldn't even smoke Connecticut anymore because there was no flavor to me at all. The palate would swoon. I would try a Connecticut even in the morning before I even tried anything else and it just didn't fit. I just couldn't enjoy it. Do you ever have that kind of case with you, Gary?

14:44 Devin Have you seen how you went from trying to do something light to do something dark and then can't go back to light? Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah. Now that was early in my stage. So you really have to have something to gauge that by. So whenever I first started, I got a small story here for you. And that is that I wanted to go. I'm a foodie. I like food. And there was something in the effect that I liked a lot of flavor. So what happens, of course, is I dev into a little bit of a, you know, full flavor type thing. And I remember one time I went into the cigar store over here in Mountain Brook when it was there, excluding ours. And I got a C.A.O. Extreme and a buddy of mine put me on that right there. He said, you need to try that. I said, OK. So I got it and I set it up on the counter. And what I did, this guy's particular guy's name was John. And John looked over me before we even knew each other. I was a newbie. And he looked over the counter and may look in my eyes and he says, you've been smoking a while, right? Well, a little, you know, which just lined through my teeth. This is probably my, I don't know, fifth cigar, you know. And I said, yeah, a little pieces. And he looked back down at look back up at me and he says, OK, that's all he said. He rang me up. I went home. And when you're a new smoker, you're wanting all flavor. You're you've you've you've got this new found desire now. You know, it's man, it's it's you've got all of that just banging around in your mouth. It's it's it's noncaloric. It doesn't have, you know, it's all of this and all these flavors just bounce around in your want more and more and more. So I'm sitting here and boy, I'm I'm taking this thing down and I get about halfway down when I did. I said, you know what? I'm not feeling so good. I ain't feeling that hard at all. I had to literally go back into my bedroom, lay down. And I guess probably right about two and a half hours later, I just said, OK, I think I'm good now.

17:21 Gary Is it? Yeah, because I know there's a there's a trend, not a trend. There's a thing you always tell smokers, especially new ones, is, hey, you want to smoke that Maduro? Yeah, I'm going to smoke that. Make sure you got something on your stomach.

17:35 Devin Now, being a seasoned cigar smoker now, I don't have to because my palates used to it. Yeah, right. But it's still a precaution you need to take sometimes because without a doubt. Yeah, I would I would suggest that for everybody, you know, because one of the weirdest feelings that I have. And of course, I'm sure, John, you probably had to do. Sure, is that is that you hadn't eaten anything or you're really not sure whether or not you spend that time between lunch and whatever supper and you want to have a smoke. And then all of a sudden you get nauseous and hungry at the same time. Yeah, you know, it's a weird feeling. You know, you're like, God, I don't feel good. But God, I would love to. I mean, I'd love to eat something right now.

18:20 Gary Right. I'll tell you a story, Gary. I used to work in a hospital in Georgia and there was a cigar shop right on the other on the other side, not across the street, but like parallel to it. And they closed it probably eight, nine o'clock. But he would stay open after hours only for medical personnel, his friends and police officers and stuff like that. And they would close the front and you go to the back and he had a big lounge back there with a big TV and we'd watch movies. That's where I first saw Big Trouble in Little China. Oh, I remember being Cali. It was probably twenty four, maybe, maybe twenty three. And he set me up with a thing of whiskey. I think it was Maker's Mark and a padrone like a Maduro padrone. I don't even remember which one it was, but it was dark. And I honestly, I hadn't eaten in like twelve hours. Good Lord. Big, big mistake. Very big mistake. I got about halfway through the cigar and about halfway through the movie. I remember sitting back, putting my head back. And when I blinked, everything spun and I went, this might be a problem. And I felt bad because he didn't charge me for the cigar. He didn't charge me for the whiskey. He didn't charge me for the whiskey. Nothing because he knew my job was very stressful. And he's like, here, man, this shirt, you know, come on in. And that was my first experience of like Maduro is not joking with you. It is not. It is not a nice little handshake saying, hey, let's have a good smoke. It's a you know what you're doing.

20:02 Devin Maduro walks right up to you and goes, hey, you know what you're doing? Because I don't think you know what you're doing. Both of those right there. Yeah.

20:11 Gary They'll get your attention, but they'll yank you by your short air and pull you around. But you know what I find funny on the Maduro talk is a skiro doesn't do that for me. I have found I smoked in a skiro the other day and I was telling the people it's in the Maduro family. It's actually classified as darker, but it's sweeter. It's got more flavor notes in every single pull of it. I really enjoyed the stick that I was smoking. It was Tuesday. I was smoking that thing and I was just all over it. I was enjoying every single pull of it. Yeah. Right. And that tells you anything. And so to continue with the palette evolution of the palette, I couldn't smoke anything but Maduro. Like it had to be dark or I wasn't wasting your time with it. Camacho Triple Maduro was probably the I Ching of Maduro in the past two years. That was that is it. I found the Maduro I want to smoke forever. And then it just happened all of a sudden. It was like every time I smoked Maduro, I just wasn't enjoying it as much. And I think it was I don't remember who it was, but there was probably Rocky and he's like, here, try this. And it was just a sun grown. And the evolution just I wouldn't say it sank. It just changed. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Because I was able to taste more notes. I was able to pick out more things. And I guess as you become more adapted to cigar smoke, it's not just a I got a cigar in my hand and I look cool. It's a I really enjoy the flavors. Let's try a different flavor. You start going for it. And then I kid you not, Gary. It was just another happened. Chance after a couple of months. Bam. I am smoking.

21:58 Devin Connecticut's and I am picking out flavors that I never could taste before. It's amazing, isn't it? Man, I'm telling you, it's nuts. And I know it's going to this is going to upset Christian Arroa, the Connecticut that made me that made me taste flavors or macadamia. Oh, macadamia. Yeah. Oh, macadamia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Max. Good smoke, man. It really is. They've been around for a long time for a reason. Yeah. So they're not bad. Yeah. Yeah. That that that does. It makes a lot of sense right there. And of course, you know, your, your favorite, of course, that has a complexity to it.

22:42 Gary All of its own, the Candela series. Oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness gracious. The new Lansero asylum ogre. Oh, my goodness. You know, it's funny is John, John introduced me to that on Sunday and I smoked it in two eighty and holy macaron.

23:05 Devin That was good. That sucker is amazing. Yeah, I've yet to have it. So that's that's cool there. Yeah. But yeah, the complexity of all of this stuff coming about in in you will. I mean, you're going to hammer out. I mean, at least I did. And I can't speak for John. John, what did you what was your evolution?

23:24 John What what did you what did you go with? I can't remember way, way, way back in the beginning. But when I started wandering in buying from you, I was buying Rocky Patel vintage nineteen ninety nine. And I was doing them in. I had a small, really short one that was almost like a bullet. I had to order me a box of them. And after about four months, I just said, give me back my money. I quickly progressed to honestly, I went from a smoke and vintage nineteen ninety nine to Camacho triple Maduro. Oh, good.

24:07 Gary Oh, that's a that's an evolution. That's a massive week.

24:11 John And that was Camacho triple Maduro pre Davidoff pre Davidoff. They claim it didn't change, but it changed. I agree.

24:23 Devin It always changes. I agree. I agree. Totally. Wholeheartedly. It does the blend, the generations, all of that stuff. It does. It changes.

24:32 John I still have like two of the original pre Davidoff triple Maduro's and who knows how they taste. I don't know if they were meant to age or not. But but I went to that and I that's what I smoked for the longest time. And I was a arrogant son of a bitch. And I just refused. The evolution of my palate was I wouldn't smoke anything less than twelve hours. Now, twelve. That was twelve dollars in 2008 money. And that that was that that's like twenty today. You know, yeah, that's what I stuck at and stuck at. And I eventually learned to move up and down. And I think what got me out of that is the original Christoph Maduro, because when cigars and more started carrying them, they were in the Christoph rough wooden boxes with the tobacco filler and they were oily. The original Christoph Maduro's were oily. They were exactly what I always picture a cigar to be. The current Christoph Maduro's don't seem to have as much oil on the wrapper as they did before or in the least in the past. And they're no Liga. But then, you know, I went from that to probably got into the Christoph Samatra's and eventually branched off from there. And it probably while. New cigar smokers don't know these things exist, especially in the Birmingham area, there are cigar events with people other than Oscar from.

26:22 Devin And.

26:23 John While I don't agree with the sales promotion. They used to be by by three, get one free by five, get three free stuff like that laws and that have changed, which make it a little bit more difficult to do things like that. But I would always that's how I expanded. I would come in for those deals. And if I came into an event, I would not leave with fewer than my five purchased cigars and whatever free ones. And that got me trying other things. But my palate went from a Connecticut to a triple Maduro and stayed dark and heavy for a long time. And then I started to slip to like that Samatra a little bit lighter or to me spicier. And I've come all the way down to. Connecticut, Perdomo, Habanio, Connecticut's. Oliva, Connecticut reserves, things like that. And then I bounced right back up and get stronger stuff. And I worked my way back down about two years ago.

27:40 Devin I was all over Egan also Leaf, Connecticut's. Some good stuff.

27:44 John And I still am. Except the old blend. Again, they changed the they changed the wrapper, but didn't change the blend. Well, that new wrapper, whatever glue they're using, changed the whole flavor of the cigar. So I'm not so. Hot on those. And now I'm getting more into the Neanderthal, the black and exactly what we're smoking tonight is about where my palate is. Except Sunday when Devin came in and he tried that Lansero, the candy can Lansero from Asylum. And I'll be trying to smoke in one of those this weekend. I was smoking because we're going to run out of them. And who knows when the next availability is? I smoked me one of the 56 by nine Alphanzos, which is on the expensive side. Right. And on the lighter side, just a lot of flavor. And it got me through the whole shift. It's just like smoking a pissed off Kristoff for five times the money. So that's I don't know if that answers your question or how my palate evolved. I started it with the Connecticut like everybody else went out before I moved here and I was in D.C. It was buying Monte Cristo's and Romeo Juliet is and things like that, which if you come in and see me, unless you specifically ask, I'm probably not going to show you cigars. You can buy just about everywhere. I'm going to show you stuff that's a little bit more unique. Who didn't come into a cigar shop to buy every day stuff? Yeah, there you go.

29:31 Gary There you go. That points a lot to the concept of the evolution of your palate, because that seems to be the general trend I see that I've seen with everybody starts like goes super dark and then pulls yourself down. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I don't ever feel like you're doing something wrong. If you're the if you're in the phase of that evolution to be hooked on Maduro right now, enjoy it. And then a side note to something we said multiple times and multiple podcasts here is when you go to buy a stick, especially when you haven't tried, buy two because you never know. Just like John said, they changed the glue or whatever. It's different. So if you found something you like, buy it again, especially if you go into a shop, you try it. You're like, I really like that before you leave. Buy two more. You bought three sticks total because you smoked one. Buy two more. You never know that might sell out right then and never come back in. For some strange reason, that may be it because everybody likes it.

30:36 Devin And I tell you, I tell you another thing too. And the reason why, and you make a great point is to buy three. And that is especially a new smoke and in some sense, because if you get a new smoke and you're not really sure about it, it's like you guys reiterated perfectly. At the beginning of the cast here. And that is that if you get three smokes, you smoke one right away. Okay. And if you don't like it, let it set six weeks, right? Let it set six weeks. Let it set in your box. Let it sit somewhere to where it's going to sweat a little bit. Even if you've got a little hu-boveda pack in your, in your, you know, in your Ziploc bag, that's fine. And then six weeks, give it another shot. And, and the third one, give it about six months and then give it a, you know, give it another shot and see what you think, because this thing's going to age a little bit. The Connecticut's not so much. However, some of the, some of the thicker stuff on the, in the Connecticut, Nicaraguan stuff like Camacho does, they can, you know, they can age a little bit on the inside and they can really soak up to that wrapper. So, uh, so yeah, I would give that a chance as well, you know, over time. Yeah. Uh, so that's a, that's a great point to have us, uh, at least get three smokes. If they're new, get, you know, get one, try it, wait six weeks, try it again and wait six months after that and see what you think there. Make notes on it too, you know, do that. Um, but, uh, one other thing I wanted to sort of touch on too, and that is that, um, I was a wise man, um, uh, who, who actually said who was a doctor, uh, who, who told, told us as well as myself said, Hey, listen, you know, you start smoking all Maduro's your pallets. You know, your pallets gonna start taking a hit. Your, your taste buds are gonna start getting coated. They're gonna start, you know, they're gonna start getting hammered. Um, and so you want to just give that a little bit of a rest every once in a while, you know, smoke something different, you know, change it up, go light, you know, and don't always go heavy. Because if you do, you're really, you're really gonna run out of, you know, flavor profiles to where you're going to go. Well, I can't taste a lot of this right here. And you're smoking a chisel Maduro and you're going, Hmm, something's wrong here. I don't know what, well, change it up. And it will, cause you're not going to appreciate it.

33:18 Gary If you, if you've, you burn out your taste buds a bit, it's going to take a minute and get them back. I'll be honest with you. That particular doctor was mentioning that, you know, you could burn it out to where you couldn't. And I was like, I don't know. I mean, you gotta be going pretty crazy like that. But yeah, there is some wisdom where it's, it's taken easy. You'll know when you're doing too much. I mean, I've got a buddy of mine. You saw him Sunday there, John. And he talks about, he doesn't even, he can't smoke Maduro's anymore. Not because his palate went out, but because of that coating thing. Like he goes, I just feel like things just don't taste right anymore. Whenever I, whenever I do a Maduro and he just, and he used to do it just like, just like the other guy, he would smoke them. He loved them to death. Cause I got him back into cigars and he's like, man, give me that Maduro, give me that Maduro. And now he won't do it. He won't even touch a Maduro.

34:14 Devin My cardio hardly won't let me do it. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of, you get a, you get a fixed. I almost can't do full body smokes now because it'll just put me to sleep. I mean, just put me to sleep. I'll end up nodding off halfway through cigar. Right. Okay. I'm done. You know, so I mean, I literally have to, if I, if I do do them, I'd have to smoke half purge it, put it away, smoke the other half on another night. Move on. Yeah. So you guys are seasoned cigar experts. Gary being the most seasoned one here. I want to see, pick your brain a little bit. I want to see if you've got any advice when it comes to, you've got a dark cigar and you kind of want to lighten it up a bit. Not that you can change the actual cigar, but are there any methods that you've learned that will like tone it down a bit when you're smoking it? Because the only technique that I know to kind of tone something down is cedar light and then a relight or a purge halfway through. But do you have anything that you would recommend, anything that you could do to kind of ease it off just a bit to enjoy Maduro even more? I would do a continual purge in my brain. I would just, you know, I would, I'd be hammering the purge away. You know, I mean, I really would. I would be just, you know, every, I guess probably every, I don't know, probably around about every eighth of an inch or so, whatever else, purge it. Also too, I would start off with the Churchill. I wouldn't start off with the Robusto. That's a good point. Toro would be okay, but I would start off with the Churchill. The Churchill tends to be a little bit smoother as you smoke it. Of course it does get a little bit more potent as you go down. But yeah, about every eight, maybe quarter of an inch, maybe something like that, purge it, you know, let it go. Purge it, purge it. Get all that, get all the excess oils out from that right there that actually build the cigars that goes down. Get all that stuff out.

36:26 Gary Gary, what do you think about, I just thought of this and I don't have any backing for it yet, but what do you think about spearing your cigar? Like if you can't see what I'm doing right now to the listeners, but I got a cigar spear and I'm putting a hole into it to kind of lighten it up so it's not so condensed. So it kind of has a little bit more room to breathe. Maybe you think that might actually help a little bit?

36:51 Devin Oh, without a doubt. I think, yeah, I think, yeah, concentrate your punch a little bit there. Concentrate your cut, in my opinion. And that is, you know, use a punch if you have to or a lance cut, you know, if you can just sort of do a, you know, take it, take it. If you got a pocket knife, just cut, don't, not on a horizontal slap, but more of a vertical like you were making almost like a diaphragm of some kind. Right. So just do a cross cut and then smoke it that way or either do a small punch. You're not getting all that smoke on that right there. Also angle your punch a little bit too to where it hits your palate, not so much your tongue.

37:38 Gary That's a good point. That's a very good point. And make sure you're not puffing it too fast too, because you don't want to hotbox it.

37:44 Devin Oh, without, oh, Devin, good shot, dude. Nice shot. That is one of the number one rookie mistakes out there. Is it? Why is my cigar getting so hot? Why is it turning bitter? Why is it burning crooked?

37:59 Gary You know, and of course, you know, you're, you're, you've got a Churchill that only lasts 40 minutes when it should last you an hour and a half or an hour and 45. Yeah, very, very good point, man. Just take it easy on it, you know, on the same note of using cedar and slowing down is when you use cedar, you're using basically a soft flame. As opposed to the high octane, a higher heat of a butane torch lighter. You may want to slow down a bit because you're talking about your evolution of your palate has gone from light to dark and is toned back down. And you're like, you know what? I really want to enjoy this M81 darkened cigar by Drew Estates. Drew Estates and you want to you're afraid to try it, so to speak, or you're you're you're a little trepidatious. You're hesitant to try it out. Well, try, you know, toast the end with your lighter and then get a cedar stick. Hit the stick. Very good. Pull in a soft flame. It's going to be it's not going to be as hot of a flame. It'll pull back a little bit and then take your time with it. So for me, when it comes to something like that, like you can go you can go to Churchill. So it's long and has time to smoke, has time to cool down coming through.

39:17 Devin Or if you go with a very short version of it, you can take your time with it, you know, and still not eat up a whole buttload of time smoking your cigar. Great, great point. Great point. Yeah, I think that's a that's that's very valid right there, man. Sure is. I like the way you do that. Yeah, not only that, man, a soft flame also adds a little bit of mystique to the beginning of the smoke. I've always said it's almost like it's almost like watching a steak sizzle and you're real hungry. You know, it's it's man, if you just if you look at this thing and you literally take your time, you toast it and make sure that that darkens any and right there for that way. When you get that thing in your mouth and you're starting to draw on it and you get a good flame off of it, that good flame actually lights the edge of the cigar and literally helps you have a even burn on it. So, yeah, because every cigar, if lit properly, it's going to burn about a half inch down in the middle. If you're not huffing the thing, if you're not just if you're not just, you know, four barrels and in all of it in, you're literally enjoying the cigar about, you know, it's normally almost like a marquee type shape burn, you know, on the cigar itself is pointed at the at the on the inside on the end and is also pointed on the inside as well. Down about, like I say, about another half inch. And then, of course, you've got the crown at the top of there. So, yeah, just take your time, man. And just enjoy the smoke. That's what that's what a lot of rookies have a hard time because they're wanting to all this flavor, all this flavor. And then next thing you know, man, they're burning their lips, their tongue burnt. They're freaking saying, oh, my God, this thing sucks. And, you know, because it's gotten better. Now the oils are just burnt on the inside. I mean, try doing that with your food. Yeah, you know, it's not it's not fun, you know. So great point there, man. John, you got anything to add?

41:31 John No, not really. I mean, yeah, the talk of the soft flame in that. It just again, I like saying that it adds to the mystique of cigar smoking and really emphasizes the cigar. Cigars are for relaxing and taking time. And you've got no business smoking a cigar if you're in a rush. Right. I agree, brother. And, you know, people, I like using a torch because it lights easier and quicker. Well, don't scorch your cigar. That's one of the problems I see people, especially with lighter cigars. You have to be more concerned with it. The lighter or the more mild the cigar is, it seems. There's so much easier to burn. And once you burn it, you burn it. There's nothing you're going to do about it. Right. It's almost impossible to smoke through a darker cigar. You can get away with it a little bit, but not much. Where, again, I'm not a big soft flame person, but I properly light my cigar with a torch where, you know, the flames a distance away. I'm not right up into the lighter and, you know, rolling the cigar and taking a few minutes and doing the toasting procedures and that. It's that, you know, that can help. You know, Devin asked a while ago about toning down a cigar. I don't believe you can. The cigars, the cigar, you live with it the way it is. I can see that. If you light something and it's too strong, it's a decision to power through it or sacrifice it and move on. That's usually even when I'm driving home and I'm going to take, you know, the next hour, hour and a half in the car to have a cigar. I'll take five or ten minutes to select the cigar. I'm going to smoke to make sure it's going to be correct for that mood, depending on the podcast I'm listening to, the music I'm listening to, the road I'm going to be driving. Right, right, right, right. Well said. There's so much to this hobby that extends beyond the cigar. Right on. And a lot of it is attitude and lifestyle. Yeah. The experience. I think people dive into things that influence cigar smoking beyond the cigar. And I think that's kind of where even the palette changes. You know, sometimes I couldn't even say sometimes if I'm in the mood, say to listen to Metallica on the drive. It's going to be a dark heavy cigar. But then on the other, you know, then it might be, you know, maybe I want something a little bit, you know, a Sumatra or something that'll be a little bit lively and festive. And it's just all goes back to and how was the day before it? You know, how was the, you know, six visits and audits that I did prior to getting in that car to try to wind down my day? Like I had a rough day yesterday. I was telling you guys it wasn't bad. It was great. Excellent food at the end of the day. But my day started. I left the hotel at seven thirty in the morning and I walked in my front door at about nine forty five at night. You know, I had to go to a dinner and everything else. And I tried to go right to bed. And that didn't work. And, you know, you have to wind down the day. And if it wasn't the weather, it was, I probably would have grabbed a cigar and went out on the deck and calm the day down. I just needed to bring myself down.

45:29 Devin And that would have been probably like our cigar of the year, the Oliva one hundred and thirty fifth anniversary. Well, let me ask you all this right here, because I've got my own way of doing it, too. And that is that what do you all like as far as a as far as a day goes? Let's just say at the end of the day, you're about to wind down and dev, you know, you've had your you've had your your rock crawling times. And at the end of the day, whether it be a great day or whether it be just a freaking God, I'm glad this thing's over. Which way do y'all lean when it comes to ending the day and what kind of day it is? What do y'all look forward to or what type do you what type smoke do y'all look forward to? Well, that's kind of what I just said is last night was an Oliva Oliva V one thirty five, not a millennial Maduro, not a was that a bad day? Was it a good day?

46:38 John It was a stress. It was just a stressful day and I needed to relax on the flip side. Sometimes I've said it before in this show, the Camacho triple Maduro is a good day to wind down or a good cigar to wind down the day. So you don't care as long as you have some just wind down the day, then right? It just it's just about like everything else in my life. It really depends on the situation. Exactly what I want. Today, I'm drinking. That's that's my drinking water. Last week, I drank one of my Spike Mountain Dews the week before I drank a non alcoholic IPA. It's just whatever I'm in the mood for.

47:22 Devin I'm not you know, I'm not the guy that comes home and always sits down with his Budweiser and his Marlboro and you know, watches the news. OK, so you really don't give a rip. It's just you know what kind of mood you're in at that particular time. That right?

47:36 John What looks good? Yeah, gotcha. Well, gotcha.

47:39 Devin How about you?

47:40 Gary Well, I tend to lean towards end of the day, stressful. I kind of go to my tried and true. I'm not. It's pretty rare where I'm like, you know what? Let's try something new. I want something that I know I enjoy. I've proven it right. Right. My go to is usually Padrone or the Aroha 20 because specifically the Aroha 20, which I've been I've been hitting like nobody's business as a I know I'm going to enjoy it. It's always good every time I have it. And if my day is just giving me hell or if it's a good day, I'll be honest with you. Like it's the extremes of the emotions. It's I want something. I'm going to sit back and go. And that's the cigar you want to find in my opinion for that end of the day cigar. It's something that you don't have to think about. You can pick the libation of your choice. And you can pick a cigar that will stand the test of time in your palette that you know you're going to like. You're not going to have to challenge. You're not going to have to be, you know, put to the test. It's OK. Whatever. Like what John and I were talking about is like the first time we tried the black and then we didn't enjoy it. If I came home from a hard day, even an easy day, the time I'm going to spend on the test of time is going to be the best. The time I'm going to spend to smoke, I'm only going to spend the time to smoke one cigar, not at the cigar shop where I've got maybe time to smoke two or, you know, things like that. So if I were to pick that black and the first time when I didn't enjoy it and I got to that cigar and my man, what a waste. Like, you know what I mean? I'm not going to I don't want to waste my time. Not to say that when you pick a cigar that you don't necessarily like or you're testing out is a waste of time because it's usually not. But when you're talking like what John was saying, it's the end of the day. It's let's pick something that's going to fit you, that you're going to love. And you know what that is. If you've been smoking cigars longer than a year, you know what that is already. You don't have to guess. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the kind of the avenue you're leaning towards is something like that. And I got to say this blackened in 81 right now, I'm about halfway a little bit, maybe a little bit over halfway. It strangely lightened up for me in a way I wasn't expecting. And yeah, so it's off for you a little bit. It has. And it's mellowed off to the point where I'm looking at the cigar and I'm thinking, OK, maybe this could be an end of the day cigar, but not like the end, the end, end, end of the day. Like it's dark and I'm going to be going to bed right after you need to take the time to enjoy the beginning, which is going to be harsher and very flavorful because Maduro kind of flavorful and then mellows out by the by the middle. And then by the time you get to the middle, you're near the end of the night of your cigar time. So, like I said, I think that question is a great question because it's a psychological question and it has to do with our topic of the evolution of the cigar or your palate, I should say. Because you know what's going to hit that. Yes, end of the day. I had a great day or I had a bad day. And this is the end cap that's going to take the edge off or put a nice note, a nice crescendo to the end of your day. And that's where you're getting into it. That's where you're getting into it because if you're at a cigar shop, that's not necessarily end of your day because you still got to drive home. So when you're at the cigar shop on the alternative to that, you're more likely to experiment a little bit more. You're more likely to drink a libation that's a little harsher that you're not quite fond of. I think it's like the libation bullet. I like bullet, but bullet is not something I have in my house because it's not something I would drink. Like, yeah, let's go have a bullet. Let's go have the bullet whiskey. No, but this this Redwood Empire, the Lost Monarch, this is I'm telling you, I keep sipping on it. I'm just getting that nice caramaline out. And I'm going this is perfect for my palate. And it is going great with this cigar. Now, if I had done the same exact procedure, John and Gary, a year ago, it wouldn't be the same. It wouldn't have been the same. I wouldn't have enjoyed the Maduro as much as I would. Even if this Maduro in the same condition, like we let it sit and it was OK, and it's even better now than it was the very first time, it wouldn't have been the same because the evolution of my palate was still on the darker range. So I would be pulling and pulling and pulling, which goes back to that concept of what you were talking about. You're pulling too hard. You're hot boxing the cigar. It's getting rough. It's burning and charred and stuff like that because you're just trying to get flavor after flavor after flavor.

52:52 Devin You Maduro, despite all the flavors into it, and I know you're really enjoying it. In my opinion, Maduro's are meant to be slower than every other flavor of cigar, even a Skiro. That's a great point, dude. Good Lord, you laid that out like a map. I mean, God, it just is.

53:13 Gary It's just meant to be done slower because the complexity of the flavor you're getting. It makes me think of a bell curve like very good. Normal cigars are a normal kind of like road map that kind of slopes up gently and slopes down and slopes up and slopes down. A Maduro is going to start usually at the top or if it doesn't start at the top, it'll start at the bottom and go right to the top and stay there for a minute. And that's when people are pulling on and pulling on it because they want it to stay at the top of that bell curve for as long as possible. And we're trying to work. What we're trying to say to you is you don't want it to stay at the top of that curve. Enjoy it for the top and enjoy the roller coaster down because that's what it's going to do, especially with this blackened Maduro. M 81 midway through this thing is toning out to be like mellow, like not even as dark as it was. Now that could be the concept of my palette even more adjusting to it as I've been smoking it.

54:14 Devin But overall, this thing is it's really nice and people with young pallets may not be able to appreciate it as much. So don't discount it immediately. Yeah, that's a that's a great point. And I'll I'll I'll say this to sort of sort of dovetail that and that is that that's one of the main reasons why I really enjoy a good San Andreas is the San Andreas to me. And in all of my experience, I've had the San Andreas, the San Andreas does not get it doesn't get overly boastful towards the middle or the end. It doesn't change a whole lot of flavor profile. And it it it almost keeps its own flavor all the way through it. We're Connecticut in broadleaf and Nicaraguan and even Ecuador and Maduro's. You're looking at you're looking at something that has a flavor change as it goes down and pending on the thickness of the wrapper. Right. You're really looking at maybe just another gear that you're going to be set in. And and I have to, you know, that's that's again, that's one of the main reasons why I thoroughly enjoy a good San Andreas is because it don't change a whole lot of flavor. It just don't. And I really enjoy that right there is it stays stays, you know, consistent all the way down. It lets the filler do the do the do the talking, if you will, you know, and and that's kind of nice. And I like that. Man, you put that right on the right on the right on the pen, buddy.

55:54 Gary You really did. On a secondary note of you're talking about consistent all the way through my general gauge of high dollar cigars, you know, 25 and up. That's generally what I'm looking for is you talking Davidoff's and stuff like that, that the flavor is consistent from beginning, not necessarily all the way to the end, but for majority of it. For like four fifths of it. OK, it is consistent all the way through. That's not to say that you can't have high dollar ones that change throughout the smoking process, but it's a good litmus test of a super high dollar one. And yeah, you're going to find strangely enough in your evolution of your palate and the ability to pick out flavors, you're going to find lower in pricing pricing, mind you, not lower in quality, but lower in pricing cigars. Some of them will have that same thread. And you're going, why are they charging so little for this? This is not bad at all. It's got that same. It's got that same temperament as this $25 one. And you may find yourself questioning why is this $25 one or even this $100 one taste incredibly similar to this $10 one? And that's something you're going to have to discover for yourself. Read up on the cigar and things like that. And you're going to develop your palate to decide what you want. Now, for me personally, I've smoked $100 cigar and I didn't get it. Like I was like, this isn't worth $100. That's not it's not worth it. But I will I will I'll go back on that statement in that. I need to try another one because I only had one because it's $100 stick. So one day, if I got enough money to purchase multiple $100 sticks, I'd like to be able to try it. Now, that's a PSA to all the manufacturers out there. If you want us to sell them, not just one stick, one stick is a good idea. I do recommend that. I do recommend that, you know, if the Xeno Platinum, if they want me to really sell that thing, I need to be able to try it. And brother, I'm not going to be able to afford, you know, $100 stick just to try it out. You know, that's just not something I'm going to do right off the bat.

58:19 Devin Yeah, agreed. Agreed there. That's that's a that's man. Again, you nailed it pretty much.

58:26 Gary You put the brakes in place on that one, brother. We appreciate everybody being here today. Remember, smoking underground dot com. Make sure to like, share, subscribe. Make sure you email John and tell him how amazing his voice is or how annoying his voice is. Either way works for John. He likes both of us in critique. You can't really say that about Gary because, you know, he's got that nice, you know, old school country gravelly voice. But make sure you hit the follow button and do us a favor. The biggest thing you can do for us. And I'm doing hand signals right now. Nobody can see it. I'm just talking with my hands and I'm not even Italian. Is share it with somebody. You know, you're you're sitting there smoking a cigar hypothetically and you're in the lounge. You're listening to the cigar podcast and you're like, you know what? I wonder if this guy in front of me has heard of it. Hey, man, I'm listening to this cigar podcast right now. You really should check them out. Pull it up on your phone. Show it to them. Show it to them. Right on your podcast app. Show them the logo. Show them all that and go. They're talking about this and the other. And it's really intriguing. Like if you whatever you however level of interest you find it, let them know and go, you should check this out, man. It's not bad. That little touch is the little thing we need to help us go. I mean, we're going to keep doing this regardless of all that. But I'm going to tell you, you all support. We all listening. We see the downloads and we appreciate it. We appreciate every single bit of it. John actually laid it out Sunday. He was showing me stuff on his analyzation, his analytics app. And I was like, really? OK, he got some. What was that like Australia or something like that? Like one download from Australia or something?

01:00:17 John I was surprised. I was genuinely surprised. Yeah, we're international. We've got Australia, Germany. Sweet. I did want to say a quick note. I had a gentleman come into the shop and talk about the podcast and he asked what he could do for us. And I said best thing and honestly, what Devon said, best thing you can do is tell a friend. Please. But if you want to do a little bit more, there's now a little picture of a cup of coffee on the website. You can click that and just buy us a cup of coffee. Not that hard. No subscriptions or anything, but you can you can ship in a coffee and that'll get divided up among us.

01:01:00 Devin Right. Absolutely. And we'll buy a cup of coffee with it. What do you think? That's for sure. You got that right. I will.

01:01:09 John So I'll just I'll just do a quick little shout out there to Bill. So thank you for mentioning the podcast.

01:01:16 Gary Hey Bill. I tell you, John. See, I and Bill, see, I told Gary you came in. Well, I think we're going to wrap it up here. I think we've gotten through the evolution of the palette. I really think you need to stop as a smoker and think about it. What phase are you in right now? Where are you straight Maduro right now? Have you moved into sun grown?

01:01:37 Devin Are you enjoying Connecticut's congrats to James Hadfield on his on his smoke? He did good. I think he did. He did good. Well, with that being said, thank you, Gary. Thank you, John. Thank you all. And we'll see you on the next exciting adventure of smoking underground. Later. Later. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.